Honestly…

September 25, 2008

One of the many reasons I love my husband. He wrote this recently in the comments to a post about morality:

“What I wish, though, is that people who fundamentally don’t care that they are enjoying privilege at the expense of others… I wish they would be more honest with themselves and others about it. Enough with the pseudo-intellectual nonsense about evolutionary biology already. Enough with the social darwinism. You make the choice to eat meat because you just don’t give a damn about the atrocities of factory farming. You’re ok with people and animals suffering and dying for your benefit. That’s the fact of the matter… if that becomes your conscious decision, so be it. You wouldn’t be the first.”

Posted by Elaine Vigneault | Filed Under Love and Marriage, veganism 

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Comments

10 Responses to “Honestly…”

  1. Mike on September 25th, 2008 10:53 am

    I am one of the few who is honest about it. I am against factory farming as practiced now, but I don’t care enough to change my behavior. I eat meat and I probably always will. Other than it being made illegal or becoming unaffordable, I don’t see anything that would change that practice. I am perfectly ok with animals suffering and dying for my benefit.

    And though I eat meat, I’ve never abused a woman or anyone, never hurt or killed a pet, etc. I support many (in fact, most) other progressive causes. I even try to move insects out of my house rather than kill them. Hypocrisy? I don’t care. Life isn’t as simple as you make it, or wish it to be.

    I doubt the conflation of violence with eating meat is based in any sort of reality for the vast majority of the population. (Though I understand that’s not exactly the point you’re making here, I’ve seen you make it before.) That’s a convenient bugaboo used in the vegan community. If everyone became a vegan tomorrow, would violence halt? I’m thinking no on that one.

    Anyway, is that honest enough for you? Animals suffer and die so I can have a hamburger, and that’s fine with me.

  2. Elaine Vigneault on September 25th, 2008 11:01 am

    Not exactly. Instead of just saying “Animals suffer and die so I can have a hamburger, and that’s fine with me” you made your comment about another topic.

  3. Mike on September 25th, 2008 11:14 am

    Since you just quoted my own words saying exactly that, I am not sure how I commented about another topic.

    I added more nuance to your black and white delineations, but my comments were quite on topic.

  4. Elaine Vigneault on September 25th, 2008 11:46 am

    Whatever, Mike. Keep arguing with me and pretending “I’ve never abused a woman or anyone, never hurt or killed a pet” isn’t a distraction. Sure. Whatever.

  5. Elaine Vigneault on September 25th, 2008 11:48 am

    You pay people to kill animals. You think they’re just ‘naturally’ sick fucks who enjoy killing animals and risking their lives to do that for you? You think your choice to eat animal flesh doesn’t impact HUMANS? Fuck you.

  6. Ed Miller on September 25th, 2008 12:11 pm

    Elaine, I love you too. :)

    Mike,

    You’re right, obviously universal veganism wouldn’t end all violence. And just as obviously (to me) there is at least some linkage between an explicit societal tolerance and sanctioning of violence toward animals and the implicit societal tolerance and sanctioning of some forms of violence toward people.

    And either way I don’t see drawing that linkage as a “bugaboo” even if the actual linkage were to be relatively thin. You have essentially conceded that there are very legitimate ethical problems with the violence toward and exploitation of animals. And likely you’d concede the same about humans. So really even if they weren’t linked in any way (contrary to fact in my opinion), at worst vegans are getting it right, and they are getting it right for a host of right reasons and one flawed one.

  7. Debie Baxter on September 26th, 2008 3:10 am

    It would make sense that a worker in a slaughter house would HAVE to become desensitized through means such as alchohol abuse, and perhaps by honing psychological “tricks”, enabling him or her to think of the the animal as a product on a production line as opposed to a living creature. Consequently, with violence being daily and routine, I can see it being played out at home, ect. I do also see the possibility for an additional scenerio. The Bible refers to these later days that we are living in as a time when people will be ( more than in the past ) lovers of self and without natural affection for one another. ( Loosley paraphrased from the Amplified Bible, 2 Timothy 2:1 and 3:1) I observe that so much, not necessarily ( on a gross scale) as a desire to do physical harm, but just a lack of caring….an “I got mine, you get yours, attitude”.
    My point is that as well as violence starting with animals and than trickling down to fellow humans, I can also see this lack of what used to basic affection and empathy for others reversed, as a starting point. When one no longer deeply cares about his fellow man, how much easier it becomes to not only lack affection, but take it one step further and physically abuse an animal.
    I’m aware that I am quoting scripture to at least some atheists in this group. But I DO know that unbelievers often acknowledge the fact that there are some truths to be found in the Bible. When i first emailed Elaine, complimenting her passionate writings, I acknowledged that we were very different, but I admire her just the same. Our household isn’t completely veg. but I am always trying new recipes that lack meat, and are often vegan, as well. The most diabolical difference is, of course, that I have chosen ( not blindly inherited a “bill of sale” from my parents and society)to follow Christ and to TRY to emulate His life, (though I often fail miserably). I, for one, find it soooo interesting when people who are sooooo different can listen to and respect one another.
    I have been meaning to write some of my deeper thoughts in this blog for a while now, but time never allows. Sooooo, I’m up before work, at 6 AM, writing away in solitude on an early Michigan morning. That means the Miller-Vigneault household and others out west, are likely still asleep. Peace to you!

  8. Debie Baxter on September 26th, 2008 3:15 am

    Oops, for the record I must make a correction, i was quoting 2 Timothy 3, 2:1 and 3:1.

  9. Bea Elliott on September 26th, 2008 6:17 am

    People who continue to eat meat, wear leather are killing animals by proxy. There is sufficient evidence that those who work in slaughterhouses have high incidences of alcholism, depression, suicide and also have criminal records involving domestic violence.

    Slaughterhouse workers have the highest turnover & injury rate as well. The task necessitates “workers to suppress their “spontaneous empathy” for the animals”. Slaughtering thousands of animals eventually causes workers to disconnect with any feeling of remorse.

    Mike, you might want to read: “Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress: The Psychological Consequences of Killing”, by Rachel M. MacNair

    “The connection between traditional animal abuse and domestic abuse has long been documented, but the link between institutionalized animal abuse and other violent tendencies has not received as much academic attention. Counties with slaughterhouses have higher arrest levels for sex offenses and more frequent reports of murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, motor vehicle theft, and arson. This study also found that, compared with other industries, the slaughterhouse industry has a more significant effect on community crime rates. The study concludes that the slaughterhouse industry’s effect on its employees and the communities are dissimilar and more deleterious than the effects of other “manufacturing” industries, indicating that the differences are likely to be located in the particularized psychological effect of the slaughterhouse work on the employees.
    “Some courts have found the prior slaughterhouse employment of defendants to be relevant information in criminal trials. In the two most recent cases, the murders at issue were performed in a manner similar to the way in which an animal at the defendant’s former place of employment would be slaughtered, making the information particularly relevant.”

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1016401#

    And there’s also EISNITZ’s book “Slaughterhouse”: “…the slaughterhouse occupation enhances a person’s tendency to commit—or at least to be comfortable with—violent acts.
    “Furthermore, the slaughterhouse work violates the natural tendency of a person to avoid the direct killing of an animal. One study found that 85% of the meat-eating participants stated that they could not kill an animal to obtain meat. This overwhelmingly common aversion to killing suggests that the slaughterhouse employment causes a majority of the employees to violate their natural preference against killing. By habitually violating one’s natural preference against killing, the worker very likely is adversely psychologically impacted.”

    “The general public can express its disapproval of the current slaughterhouse conditions by reducing its consumption of the products of the slaughterhouse—meat, eggs, and dairy products. By signaling to the slaughterhouse industry that the current conditions suffered by the workers and by the animals are unacceptable, the general public can use its most powerful weapon—the dollar—to help change the policies of the slaughterhouse industry. The social effects of slaughterhouse product consumption are harmful and far-reaching, and the legal regime and the general public must act to reduce those deleterious effects on society”.

    If you eat meat you are contributing not only to the suffering of non-human animals but supporting a culture that condones violence. If all slaughterhouses were to shut down tommorrow would all violence to people be eliminated? Probably not… but I do believe there would be a significant drop in harm to humans, and over time given the chance to re-write our true authentic and *COMPASSIONATE* selves - violence would cease. The world would be a better place if we stopped killing animals!

  10. Bea Elliott on September 26th, 2008 6:28 am

    Oh… one other thing I forgot to mention to validate the point that slaughterhouse workers become psychologically damaged - At one time a century or so ago, butchers and abbitoir workers were forbidden to take part as jury members… the thought being that they were immune to suffering and would not be objective in handing down verdicts. To this day - lawyers refrain from selecting laughterhouse workers…

    If you eat meat, you are paying other people to destroy their emotional connection to all living beings. If the crime rate goes up in your neighborhood - you may want to re-evaluate who’s on your plate.

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